Hey, People(s) of Color...

"ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)" (adabofoppo)
07/16/2016 at 23:08 • Filed to: Dumb White People

Question: I’m white and male. I realize these attributes give me a automatic position of privilege.

Wife and I went out to dinner the other night. Host was a young black male. I thought he was sharply dressed and he was sporting a small Afro-ish looking haircut. I thought he was rocking his look and wanted to give him a genuine compliment that I liked his style.

I chose to say nothing for fear of it sounding racist/ignorant.

Was that the correct choice? If it is acceptable for me to say a positive remark, how should I have gone about saying it?

Thanks.

EDIT: So I posted this just before I went to sleep. I may not have conveyed my thoughts in a coherent manner.

I thought said young man looked sharp, and wanted to tell him as a genuine compliment my thoughts. I chose not to do so because I was worried my comment that I liked his haircut and overall appearance might be misconstrued. That he was black and his hair was done in a style typically associated with race made me feel like I was unable to offer a positive comment for fear of sounding racist. I only made mention of it to request guidance on what to have said.

I did not want to try and say something positive and have it sound the opposite of that.

I very simply thought this young man was dressed sharply and was rocking his hair. Nothing more to it than that.

DISCUSSION (56)

Berang > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:15

Probably depends on how you would’ve worded the compliment.

Being too afraid to talk to people isn’t much good either. Plus, believe me, they’ve heard far worse things than awkward compliments from nerdy white folk.

wiffleballtony > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:19

“Excuse me, sir. Your fashion in which you have styled your hair has provided me with an abundance of satisfaction. I congratulate you on your taste.”

-another white person

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:19

“I like/love you hair!” would have sufficed.

Spridget > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:20

“I like your haircut” or “You look sharp”?

Opposite Locksmith > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:24

Say I like your blackness. Only right phrasing

yamahog > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:31

We’re white too, but my fiance’s default to other guys is “You’re a very attractive man, Abersold . Don’t think I haven’t noticed.”

DasWauto > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:33

Just as you would any other person, compliment away. “I like your suit, looks sharp”, or something along those lines, would’ve been good.

Don’t let race be a barrier that makes you afraid to interact. The absolute best thing you can do is to not let skin colour be a ‘thing’ between yourself and others. Be open and treat others the same way you want to be treated.

Panther Brown Tdi Volvo Shooting Brake Manual Miata RWD Wagon Stole HondaBro's Accord. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:38

Just say it! people can process your words and the the way you say them

Under_Score > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:39

“I’m white and male. I realize these attributes give me a automatic position of privilege.”

The sad thing is, white males, which seem to make up most of Oppo, are being made to feel bad because of who we are. I feel sorry that you were afraid to compliment him because you didn’t know how he’d respond, as the race, gender, etc. discrimination cards are pulled all the time. I’m glad that society has become more accepting of women, racial minorities, and members of the LGBTQ+ community, but white men, who have had the “privilege” all along, seem to be turning into the shamed group. It would’ve been sweet to tell him that he had nice looking hair, but hopefully he wouldn’t have gotten upset.

I’m sorry if this went a bit off topic; I just don’t like that some people perceive every little thing as racist, and I hope you realize that you aren’t “privileged” just because of being a white male. In fact, ignore the concept of “privilege”; you live a good life, you’re married, and you’re a happy man. Tumblr feminists may call that “privilege”, but ignore them and be thankful for who you are, and don’t let the idea that you’re “privileged” make you feel bad about yourself.

samssun > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:42

So this is what we’ve come to...can someone wake me up when the privilege/self-hate fad is over? I’ll be in my safe space aka pillow fort.

Xyl0c41n3 > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:45

Depends on how you word the compliment.

If you say something like “I like your afro,” or something that specifically calls attention to how the two of you are different (racially) then, yeah, that’s kinda bullshit and patronizing.

However, having been in that position before (receiving compliments for characteristics that are typically attributed to my ethnicity), I’m willing to bet he would have likely smiled awkwardly and told you a noncommittal “thanks.” (Then there’s also how he would have been required to keep being kind and courteous to you, no matter his personal feelings on the matter, since he was working and his job specifically requires that he provide you such service).

I say that because that’s exactly how I’ve reacted in the past when confronted by similar situations. Depending on the rest of your interaction with him, and your age, would have further impacted his likely response to you.

For example, I give older white people a pass on compliments like that (I’m talking 60+ years old), because sometimes they mean well but don’t realize that stuff can be misconstrued as insensitive. It’s part of being a product of their generation.

But, going back to what I was saying about “the rest of your interaction with him” ... If it seemed like you were fawning over him or paying way too much attention to him because of his blackness, then that’s a little too close to fetishizing him, and that’s not ok, either. Like, some people are so desperate to seem “with it” and “woke” that they go to pretty embarrassing lengths to prove how cool they are with black people, Latinos, etc. (I’m not at all saying that’s what you were doing, I’m just giving possible scenarios). That can sometimes take the form of offering superfluous compliments, again, about characteristics typically associated with a person’s race or ethnicity (for example, you pointed out his hair style as being a small afro).

Also, you mention that he was “sharply dressed” and this was part of the reason you wanted to offer a compliment. Why is that? Was there a lingering preconception in the back of your mind that young black men don’t usually dress like that?

Examine the rest of the restaurant. Were the other waitstaff, hosts/hostesses, managers, bartenders, etc. similarly dressed? Then why single him out for adhering to what is likely a company dress code?

Or maybe it really was that he rocked the look. That’s entirely possible. I used to work at Starbucks (I know, not exactly fine dining), and it had a pretty limited dress code. Black or khaki bottoms (pants, long shorts, or skirts), white or black button down shirts or polos, black nonslip shoes. You’d think that that kind of dress code would look pretty good on a wide variety of people, but it’s just not my thing. I always looked pretty awful. Some of my coworkers, though, looked like they walked out of ads for Abercrombie & Fitch. So it goes.

In the past I’ve gotten compliments that are based either on admiring an ethnic characteristic, or in how I “break” an ethnic stereotype (i.e.: how something I do seems more white than people expected). Like, I’ve gotten comments on the dark color of my hair or the color of my skin (no joke), or how well I speak (I was born here, and English is one of my primary languages, so why would I have an accent?). I’ve had someone jokingly say they want to steal one of my future children because they love how cute Latino kids are (also, not a joke).

All of these things have happened from people who mean well, from people who are kind and smart and loving. But it doesn’t make it any less wrong.

So, basically, I guess the point of this rambling diatribe of mine is to ask you what your real motivations were for wanting to offer the compliment?

And also, if you want to give that compliment in the future, go ahead. With two caveats:

1. Don’t give a compliment expecting anything in return, because then that makes the compliment about you, not the other person.

2. Give a compliment in a way that doesn’t other the person receiving the compliment. (I.e.: instead of complimenting his hair, just try saying something like, “you look sharp, man!” Or just thank him for his excellent service, which has nothing to do with his race at all).

Xyl0c41n3 > wiffleballtony
07/16/2016 at 23:47

Don’t do that.

-a Latina.

Xyl0c41n3 > Under_Score
07/16/2016 at 23:48

That you think acknowledging privilege is nothing more than a campaign to smear white men and shame them just illustrates your own unexamined privilege.

Xyl0c41n3 > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/16/2016 at 23:55

Depends on how you word the compliment.

If you say something like “I like your afro,” or something that specifically calls attention to how the two of you are different (racially) then, yeah, that’s kinda bullshit and patronizing.

All of these things have happened from people who mean well, from people who are kind and smart and loving. But it doesn’t make it any less wrong.

So, basically, I guess the point of this rambling diatribe of mine is to ask you what your real motivations were for wanting to offer the compliment?

And also, if you want to give that compliment in the future, go ahead. With two caveats:

1. Don’t give a compliment expecting anything in return, because then that makes the compliment about you, not the other person.

Toby F., Manager > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/17/2016 at 00:01

I’m a heterosexual person of color, and I have a similar issue with half the people I compliment (whether straight or gay; and regardless of race). Usually I go for the “great style,” “I like your style,” or “looking good, dude/man”; but half the time my compliments get construed as me flirting, regardless of my normal tone. The vibe sometimes gets awkward after.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/17/2016 at 00:02

Oh man... this whole post... The fact that his race was even a factor, the fact that you are still pondering it days later, and the fact that you came here to ask makes me think you might be ignorant or subconsciously a little racist. It’s probably not your fault though. Our US culture/society has a sort of double standard of “hey we’re all equal human beings” then praises differences in gender, orientation, race, physical ability etc. to the point that the white straight male between the ages of 18-35 is seen as having nothing to contribute to diversity. Even though we’re all the same... Racism won’t go away until people stop thinking about race.

Your boy, BJR > yamahog
07/17/2016 at 00:05

Hahaha that's fucking perfect.

Xyl0c41n3 > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/17/2016 at 00:13

Also, I have to ask why you dismissed my initial reply to you. You asked for the opinions of Oppo’s members who are POC and thus far, I’m the only one who fits that description to respond. Seems a little counterproductive.

DasWauto > Xyl0c41n3
07/17/2016 at 00:16

Your response isn’t dismissed as far as I can tell and you are not the only person of colour to have responded.

Xyl0c41n3 > DasWauto
07/17/2016 at 00:18

Yes it is. I reposted it.

Original: http://oppositelock.kinja.com/depends-on-how…

New copy: http://oppositelock.kinja.com/depends-on-how…

ETA: at the time I commented, I was.

yamahog > Under_Score
07/17/2016 at 00:21

I’ve noticed you express this sentiment a few times on Oppo now, and like a lot of people who take issue with the concept of privilege, it sounds like your understanding of it differs from reality. The goal isn’t to make people feel bad, it’s to acknowledge that sometimes we benefit from other peoples’ oppression so we can do what we can to prevent it. “you live a good life, you’re married, and you’re a happy man” has nothing to do with it.

yamahog > samssun
07/17/2016 at 00:22

can someone wake me up when the people whining about these concepts they’ve been told to whine about actually know what they mean?

DasWauto > Xyl0c41n3
07/17/2016 at 00:23

I still see the original from 11:55, just as I did when I replied. If it pops back up for you (Kinja?) please edit the second copy to reflect its duplicity.

Xyl0c41n3 > DasWauto
07/17/2016 at 00:26

The first one, which was dismissed, posted at 11:45. The second one, which I c/p’ed, posted at 11:55.

Kinja'd!!!

DasWauto > Xyl0c41n3
07/17/2016 at 00:34

Yeah, sorry, I derped. Thought 11:55 was the original and that you had reposted after the comment asking why the first was dismissed.

I am going to leave that first one dismissed, since it is now redundant.

Whether or not Adabofoppo chooses to answer your question is up to him.

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > samssun
07/17/2016 at 00:39

Got room for one more?

DasWauto > yamahog
07/17/2016 at 00:53

Acknowledging privilege to affect change is the goal but there are definitely also those who go too far and seek to shame or make others feel bad about their privilege. Clearly some of that has affected Adabofoppo as he didn’t feel comfortable complimenting a person of another race because of how he has been made to feel about his own. That is what under_score is referring to and lamenting and it is a valid concern.

TheHondaBro > samssun
07/17/2016 at 00:54

What's the password?

samssun > TheHondaBro
07/17/2016 at 01:00

The password is: “problematic”

samssun > JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder!
07/17/2016 at 01:01

You might need to appropriate more pillows to build an addition.

yamahog > DasWauto
07/17/2016 at 01:03

We had a user in this thread saying he had no idea “uppity” was associated with telling blacks to know their place, so considering our audience I would rather see people fully understand the concept of privilege before complaining about their incomplete or ill informed understanding of it and seeking internet high fives. Adabofoppo seeking input on things he’s not sure about, rather than saying whatever regardless of how it would impact the recipient, has nothing to do with feeling bad about being white. He wanted to make sure his compliment was received as a compliment, rather than saying something ignorant. Being considerate of others isn’t a bad thing.

DasWauto > yamahog
07/17/2016 at 01:21

There’s being considerate of others (which obviously isn’t a bad thing) and there’s being afraid to say something as otherwise simple as a compliment for fear of it being misconstrued as racist. I see the latter (he mentioned that fear directly) and having that fear instilled in someone is no good for race issues either.

Tbh, I had no idea about that history for ‘uppity’ either, though that’s likely to do with not being in the US and not having lived my entire life in Canada either.

yamahog > DasWauto
07/17/2016 at 01:38

Being unaware of something doesn’t negate its impact.

Which is why the fear of saying something that would make his compliment an insult is a form of consideration. I would counter that it’s great when people take the time to think about what they’re saying rather than just blurting out what comes to mind and finding out they were unaware of important connotations.

Also, compliments (especially related to appearance) aren’t always simple. I’ve been on the receiving end of countless extremely uncomfortable ones even without a racial component, and I really wish those people had half the consideration that OP is showing here.

bryan40oop > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/17/2016 at 06:27

Just compliment his or her whatever. Don’t bring race or gender into it. That’s the point. A bland non personalized “safe” compliment is whats expected these days. But it’s still a compliment non the less.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Xyl0c41n3
07/17/2016 at 07:45

I've been asleep until just now, so I have no idea.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123
07/17/2016 at 07:51

Nope. Not even close.

fhrblig > Under_Score
07/17/2016 at 10:59

I totally agree that no one should feel bad for who they are. If you’re a white male (like me), rock on with your white self. However, this...

I hope you realize that you aren’t “privileged” just because of being a white male.

is a HUGE line of BS, dude. If you truly believe this, you have a level of un-self-awareness that makes me fear for your safety when you go outside. You’re likely to get hit by a car that you deny is there.

I am acutely aware of how being white and male has made my life better and given me major advantages in life, even if I am also LGBT. For a start, I make more money than my female counterparts, I don’t get pulled over if I’m driving a nice car in a bad neighborhood, on the occasion that I do get pulled over I’m not treated as though they KNOW I’m a criminal, the list goes on and on. I wish things were on level footing for everyone, but I’m not going to feel bad about who I am because of who I was born as. I will try to change things when I’m given the power to do so. For example, if I were given a position in HR that determines compensation I would ensure that people are compensated for their ability instead of some arbitrary thing like gender. I can’t necessarily change the world, but I can do what’s right.

The fact that there are a few people out there that would want you to feel bad about things like privilege doesn’t mean it’s ok for you to put your head in the sand and pretend that it doesn’t exist.

Don’t feel bad about who you are. Just be aware that all people don’t start out with the same advantages that you and I have enjoyed.

DasWauto > yamahog
07/17/2016 at 11:54

Being unaware doesn’t negate its impact, I agree, but it only has that impact if people insist that it does. Let the historical meaning of the word be outdated as it is and let the racism that went along with that meaning die with it. That’s not to say that said racism should be discounted or forgotten, just that it’s better to move on and let ‘uppity’ live by the dictionary definition. This is especially true when there is very clearly no intent to use it beyond said definition.

I’m aware that compliments aren’t always simple. [This is especially true wit men complimenting women as nuances and tone can take something from platonic, to flirting, to objectifying, as you’ve obviously experienced. The same can be said if a gay man is to compliment another man.]

That said, this situation isn’t and shouldn’t have been as complicated. A man wanted to compliment another man on his style of dress - as long as skin colour and other characteristic traits of a race aren’t brought into it (obvious), it should have been a simple compliment to make.

I appreciate AdabofOppo’s consideration here, this kind of discussion does foster learning and progress, but his fear does show it’s possible to go too far in wanting not to offend, to the point where a person is afraid to interact casually with another person because of a difference in skin colour.

yamahog > DasWauto
07/17/2016 at 12:07

That’s the problem. You think it’s as easy as just letting the historical meaning be forgotten, but people still use it that way. So all you’re doing is giving them deniability rather than holding them accountable for their dogwhistle intent.

And your last paragraph is just so cringe inducing. Heaven forbid a white man worry about saying something. So terrible. Almost as bad as being systemically oppressed for centuries and being worried about interacting casually with a person of a different race because you can do everything right and still get beaten or killed.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Xyl0c41n3
07/17/2016 at 12:24

I’m genuinely curious how “Afro” is racially linked. I’m as white as you can be (Germanic descent) and in high school when my curly-ass hair was in the 4-5-inch range I’d often get comments about my “'fro"

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
07/17/2016 at 12:27

I probably would have done something like “duuuuuuuude, dope hair” as I walked by while doing finger-guns because I’m an obnoxious loud person sometimes and when you’re that over the top about something its hard to misconstrue it.

Xyl0c41n3 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/17/2016 at 12:54

Is this a serious question? Like, for real?

The racial origins are in the word itself. How do you not see that?

http://bfy.tw/6mmT

I mean, you might as well ask how tacos or guacamole are of Mexican origin since you can get approximations of both at Taco Bell. Never mind that both words are Spanish.

Or that rap and R&B don’t have their origins in black culture because Eminem and Macklemore are rap and R&B musicians.

C’mon Jake. Get out of here with that ignorant ish.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Xyl0c41n3
07/17/2016 at 13:01

It’s not exactly something taught in schools. Interesting though how the hairstyle originated with white people but the word itself is related to black culture.

Unrelated but the word “ish” is just.... Ugh.

Xyl0c41n3 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/17/2016 at 13:05

Hey, I don’t like when people call their cars “whips” (which also has its origins in black culture) but I don’t complain.

*shrug emoji*

yamahog > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/17/2016 at 13:21

The amount of willful ignorance all over this place is just... Ugh.

both of you: knock it off.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Xyl0c41n3
07/17/2016 at 13:24

Yeah, that’s up there as far as obnoxious terms go. Somewhat annoyingly I say stuff like that in a joking over-the-top manner so much it eventually becomes part of my everyday speech and I become that which annoyed me.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > yamahog
07/17/2016 at 13:32

I appreciate the thought but I don’t believe a moderator intervention is necessary here. I had a question and xylo stepped in and answered it. I learned something, wheeee. It’s perfectly civilized.

And thanks for the willfull ignorance remark. Super necessary.

Xyl0c41n3 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/17/2016 at 14:20

That happened to me with “ginormous” and, to a lesser extent, “ridonkulous.” I’m ashamed every time I use the latter, heh.

DasWauto > yamahog
07/17/2016 at 14:57

I’m not saying the historical meaning should be forgotten. In fact, I said explicitly that it shouldn’t. People who still use it as such should be called on that racism, but those who use the word for its dictionary definition don’t need to be adressed as if there was racist intent.

To say it is cringe inducing that everyone should feel comfortable interacting with others regardless of race is ridiculous, hurtful even.

The past and continued oppression of people of colour isn’t ok, obviously, not by a long shot, but that doesn’t mean white people should need to worry or feel bad before even having said something. One does not make the other alright, that doesn’t help progress either.

yamahog > DasWauto
07/17/2016 at 15:41

please see the mod chat if you’d like to discuss this further.

yamahog > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/17/2016 at 15:44

and then you dismissed her comment? It was in the grey before I starred it, which is why I said something.

And yes, it is necessary, especially when other moderators are guilty of it.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Xyl0c41n3
07/17/2016 at 16:03

Oh man it’s amazing how quickly slang goes from cringe to daily use and right back to cringe again XD

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > yamahog
07/17/2016 at 16:04

I didn’t dismiss anything. I’m on mobile, I don’t even know how to dismiss on here. Kinja being Kinja perhaps?

Xyl0c41n3 > yamahog
07/17/2016 at 16:09

Hey Yama. I don’t think Jake dismissed my comment. I think I was just unfollowed for Oppo after last night’s comments on this thread. I don’t think it was Jake who did that.

My original super long comment on this post last night *was* dismissed for a while and essentially disappeared from the thread altogether, then it got undismissed (and showed back up grey as a result), but the rest of my comments last night showed up in black, like normal.

Sometime after that is when someone unfollowed me for Oppo, because as soon as I tried to reply to Jake this morning, which was my first comment on Oppo since last night, the comment published grey.

Sorry for the rambling comment, but I don't want Jake getting in trouble for something I don't think he did.

yamahog > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
07/17/2016 at 16:13

ok, my mistake. sorry for jumping to that ASSumption!

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > yamahog
07/17/2016 at 16:32

*laugh track and 80s comedy sitcom music*